Restorative Justice and Interpersonal Violence on College Campuses

On the first episode of the Phoenix Cast's series on restorative justice (RJ), Megan and Racheal discuss what RJ is and how it can be used not just to respond to interpersonal violence on college campuses, but how it can transform the entire campus culture. They discuss the insights they gained from The Little Book of Restorative Justice for Campus Sexual Harms by Mikayla McCray and Rachel Roth Sawatzky, their thoughts on punitive systems like the criminal legal system and Title IX, and the benefits of using RJ to address conduct violations, including sexual misconduct. 

For more information about restorative justice, check out the National Center on Restorative Justice's website: https://ncorj.org/what-is-restorative-justice/

If you are in crisis and need immediate support, please call our 24/7 interpersonal violence helpline at 303-556-2255.

Request an Appointment with an Advocate at
https://www.thepca.org/online-appointment-request

Request a Violence Prevention Presentation at
https://www.thepca.org/prevention-education

Instagram @phoenixauraria

Transcript

Megan  00:00

Hello, and welcome to the Phoenix Cast.

Megan  00:20

Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Phoenix Cast. My name is Megan. I'm one of the Violence Prevention Education interns here at the Phoenix Center, and I'm joined today by Racheal. I'll let her introduce herself.

Racheal  00:33

Hey, y'all, it is Racheal. Y'all have heard me a lot, Violence Prevention Education Program Manager at the Phoenix Center at Auraria.

Megan  00:41

Thank you for joining me today, Racheal. I am very excited to be recording this podcast today. This has been a work in progress for me and Racheal for quite some time now. We had a period over the summer of 2025 where there aren't many students on campus. It's a slower time for the offices on campus, because everyone is still coming to work, there's just not as many students to serve. So I think Racheal and I had perhaps a little bit too much time to come up with ideas and get excited about things, because we definitely way overbooked ourselves and thought that we could do way more than we could, which is totally fine. It's an important lesson to learn. We had to reel it in a little bit, but one of the things that we both felt very compelled to explore in a more in depth way was restorative justice. So on this season of the Phoenix Cast, we will be featuring an entire series on restorative justice. I will be hosting that series. This is the first episode. Me and Racheal are doing it together. And then I will be continuing to speak with people who are practicing restorative justice, both on the Auraria campus and in the Denver Metro area community. Before we begin, I do want to note that this episode will feature discussion of interpersonal violence, including both relationship and sexual violence. If you need support at any point while listening to this podcast or afterward because of the content we discuss, please do feel free to call our free and confidential helpline. The number for that is 303-556-2255.

Megan  02:27

As I mentioned, this is going to be an ongoing series about restorative justice. So in this first episode, we really want to lay the foundation for those discussions we'll be having throughout the series. So we're going to talk about what restorative justice is, how it can be implemented on college campuses, including the Auraria campus. We're going to focus in this episode on how we can use restorative justice, particularly in response to sexual misconduct. And I do want to take note here that we usually, if anyone is a frequent listener of the Phoenix cast, our office uses the term interpersonal violence, which encompasses relationship violence, sexual violence and stalking. You just heard me say sexual misconduct. I'm doing that intentionally, because we are focusing on sexual harm on college campuses in this episode, and in higher education settings, sexual misconduct is the term that is most often used. The offices that handle sexual misconduct on campuses, so things like the Dean of Students Office, they view this as a conduct violation. A student who has perpetrated any type of sexual harm is in conflict with university policies surrounding how students ought to conduct themselves.

Megan  03:46

So throughout this episode, when I say sexual misconduct, I am referring to sexual violence.

Megan  03:52

So before we really start, y'all have heard me say the word restorative justice, probably at least, what, five or six times now, and some of you might be wondering, what even is restorative justice, and that's so fair. It's not a term that I see widely used, and I think it's a concept that many people are unfamiliar with. So before we really get deep into the episode, we do want to spend some time explaining what restorative justice is for anyone who isn't familiar with that term, or maybe for people who have heard of it but aren't sure of all the details, for the sake of not saying all of those syllables all the time. We also will be referring to restorative justice as RJ. RJ- restorative justice- in the simplest terms, is a philosophy and a set of practices that are used to address harm. So this looks a lot of different ways. It can be done both proactively through community building, or it can be done reactively to address harm after it's already happened. And many people think of restorative justice as a new idea, as something that developed as an alternative to the criminal legal system that we have in the United States, as an alternative to punitive systems like that system. And that is how it's used right now, is as an alternative to those systems. But it did not develop in response to those systems. The truth is, it's actually rooted in traditions that are 1000s of years old. Indigenous communities across the globe have extensive histories of practicing the values and processes used in RJ to address harm in their own communities, and we think it's very important to acknowledge that because as a result of colonization, so much indigenous history has been completely erased, or it's been co opted in such a way that it's thought of as a Western practice or a Western invention. And so it's very important that we name that these practices are rooted in indigenous tradition, and that we give thanks to the cultures and communities that have been practicing this for giving us the opportunity to learn from them. So what is this philosophy and these values and these practices that I have been referencing throughout our little introduction section? You may be wondering, so I will give y'all a very brief introduction to what restorative justice is, and I do want to name that at this point in learning about RJ, my understanding of it comes from a pretty large collection of conversations with different people, speaking with a few different organizations, reading many different books and articles. So I am not going to give something directly from one book or one website, but we will make sure to include resources in the description of this episode, and they're also on our Instagram post as well, for everyone to look at if they want to know where I got my understanding from, or if they want to read more themselves about restorative justice. Some of the biggest guiding principles of restorative justice is that it centers relationships and community. It focuses on identifying needs and repairing harm. It encourages active accountability, and it relies on voluntary participation. Restorative justice processes are places that have space for nuance and can hold multiple truths, and they exist within a social justice framework, which means that they understand how marginalization and oppression affect individuals experiences, and these experiences are accounted for throughout the process. Something particularly of note about restorative justice is that it's non punitive. So this means it's not rooted in punishment. When we think of punitive systems, something that might really readily come to mind for many of us living in the United States is our criminal legal system. So that system, as we all know, relies on things like jail and fines and prison, which are all forms of punishment to try to deter people from committing crimes or to make them pay the price. I'm using air quotes for the crimes that they have committed. So punitive systems ask the question, "Did someone do something wrong? And if yes, how should they be punished?" Restorative justice, in contrast to this, asks, "What harm was done? What are the needs of those involved, and how can the harm be repaired to the extent possible?" This is not to say that people do not face consequences for the wrong that they have done in a restorative justice process. These things are just framed as consequences rather than punishment. So a consequence is something that would be relevant to whatever harm was done, that would be proportional to whatever harm was done, and that actually addressed the needs of whoever the harm was done to, whether that be an institution, an organization, a community, or an individual person. And there are a number of ways that this can be carried out. Something that I think is really very cool about restorative justice is that there's a lot of flexibility and creativity within the process. So restorative justice processes can look like many different things. Sometimes there can be conferences to address a harm that has happened. This can happen sometimes, if it's like a larger community harm that's being addressed, if it's a historic harm that's being addressed, and many people need to be involved in that process. Something very common within restorative justice is having circles. So that's quite literal. Everyone sits in a circle where everyone can see each other. There's a lot of intention, and sometimes there has to be a table, but there is intention in not having anything separating people in the circle. So we're all very open to each other. And circles can consist again, depending on what is being addressed and the needs of everyone, of just a few people, upwards of I think we've done community building... I've been a part of community building circles that have had like 20 to 30 people in them. There's also a process known as shuttling, which can happen when the person who has been harmed and the person who has caused harm don't want to have direct contact with each other, so a facilitator will meet with each of them individually, and then go back and forth between the two of them to facilitate the conversation. And like I said, this is such a brief introduction to what restorative justice is, we probably could spend several podcast episodes just going over the details of its values and the philosophy behind it, and the many different ways that it can be practiced in so many different contexts. But for the sake of time, Racheal and I do need to get into discussing the book. So there is actually... I think series is probably the most accurate word. I'm not sure. It's the most accurate one I can think of, at least... of books that specifically address restorative justice. They're all called "The Little Book of Restorative Justice for..." and Racheal and I- for this podcast episode- read "The Little Book of Restorative Justice for Campus Sexual Harms". This one is by Mikayla W-C McRay and Rachel Roth Sawatsky. Both authors have worked in higher education in some capacity. Rachel, I know- I remember- was a Title IX coordinator, and both Mikayla and Rachel have been involved extensively in RJ processes. The two met because they worked together to develop a restorative justice process to address sexual harm on a college campus they both worked on. So the book begins with an anonymous letter. They have... in their anonymous letter that was published in a university's newspaper from a student talking about their experience with Title IX. The student shared, "The university doesn't actually care whether or not you have been sexually assaulted. They only care about gathering statistics to claim that we are safe. The vagueness of the university's response just made me question my character instead of helping. The questions I received while seeking help made me feel worse about myself." Throughout the book, and there's other examples of students sharing their experiences of wanting to receive support, to address either another student's behavior or staff or faculty's inappropriate behavior, but feeling like the Title IX process was too punitive, or that it was too slow, or that it didn't address what they needed to be addressed at all, or that it just made things more complicated. This book explores how restorative justice practices can be integrated into Title IX processes to avoid things like that happening, to avoid this sense of dissatisfaction from the process either doing too much or too little, or taking too long or not actually addressing what it was on the person who came to the Title IX office wanted addressed. So before we get really into discussing the book, I'm sure that not all of us here are familiar with what Title IX is. I'm certainly not an expert by any means, and had to do a lot of research into it as I was reading this book. So fortunately, we have Racheal here, who does know quite a bit about Title IX. Racheal used to work in legal advocacy, so she definitely has a strong foundational knowledge of all the laws and everything that I unfortunately do not. So thank you, Racheal, for providing your insight into this, and I'm wondering if you can just let our listeners know a little bit about what Title IX is.

Racheal  13:31

Yeah, definitely. So Title IX started out in 1972... it was the Title IX Education Amendments Act of 1972, and this was to address sex discrimination in higher education, because folks were noticing that specifically female led activities or sports events were not being as funded as male focused sports events. So they try to create some federal legislation to ensure that no matter your sex or your gender, that everyone had equal access to education programs and activities. So the intent of Title IX was to ensure that educational spaces were- again- free from sex and gender based harms or barriers, to ensure that students could engage with their educational environments all the way starting from the admissions process, from when they're applying to become a student at a university. All the way through graduation. So the intent was to break down some of those barriers we were seeing, but unfortunately, we will be talking about- and as Megan has talked about a little bit- Title IX has caused harm for a lot of folks Like we- Megan- had mentioned at the beginning of the book, there was an anonymous letter that the authors had referenced about a student sharing how harmful their experience was with Title IX, and that's, unfortunately, something we hear a lot from students, even in our space and even when I did legal advocacy once upon a time, students share, especially if the student is the person who was harmed, they often share that they feel like they're being blamed or questioned about their experience. They're not received. Consistent communication from the investigators or the investigator is not being clear about what they need from the person who was making the report. With a lot of those things in mind, a lot of folks just feel very discouraged and like they don't want to access Title IX because of those things. And also, like Megan shared earlier, the legal system is a very punitive system, but also Title IX is punitive as well. So when someone... if they choose to make a Title IX report, oftentimes, the intention and the goal with that is to either say what policies were violated, if it's what, if these policies were violated by the person who caused harm, how are we going to punish this person? Or if we don't find that this person violated any policies, and we don't find this person responsible for the harm that's been reported, then, okay, good luck. Enjoy the rest of your education. So again, that causes a lot of harm, because it's just such a narrow way to handle a lot of these complex things that come to Title IX offices and spaces, and it doesn't provide a lot of nuance for the complexities that can come up in every specific case that we're going to talk about in a little bit. So like we'll be mentioning as we're talking about this topic, Title IX really lacks the ability to be comprehensive and holistic with the solutions they have, because a lot of the time they're just trying to make sure they're meeting those federal requirements that are required for Title IX, because if schools are found not meeting those requirements, they're at risk for losing federal funding, and the majority of a lot of public schools, especially, are funded through federal funds. So oftentimes the main concern is, how do we make sure we are meeting the needs and requirements of the federal government to ensure we keep our federal funding? So like getting student loans and those things. And like we'll talk about during this podcast, there are ways that schools can do that, but that's just a little context for Title IX, the intention behind it, and how, unfortunately, the current processes are just really harmful for folks who choose to engage with it.

Megan  16:50

Thank you for sharing all that information, Racheal. And there was something that you said that made me think of something that one of the authors of this book, Rachel Roth Sawatsky, said about Title IX, and so I'm just going to read from the book. It says, "Rachel has also worked within the American higher education arena, holding different student affairs roles and serving as a Title IX coordinator. In this role, she developed a profound appreciation for all that Title IX has done to advance educational access and equity in the US, and arrived at the profoundly sobering conclusion that Title IX compliant responses are often too little, too late, or utterly antithetical to what a specific situation requires." And that was something when I read that, I was like, wow. Like, what a... that must have been such a complicated realization for her to come to, because, as you highlight the history of Title IX... In theory, right? That sounds great, yeah. Like we want protections from discrimination. We want guaranteed civil rights. We want equal access to educational programs and activities. And this is a situation where it seems that two things are true at once. And, like, those things were given by Title IX. Title IX does help to protect those things. And also, particularly in its responses to relationship violence and sexual misconduct on college campuses, it's not doing enough,

Racheal  18:18

Yeah. And, like, not to... and everyone before y'all come at me, like, oh, how dare you shit on Title IX completely say Title IX sucks... like Megan was sharing, like, obviously it's created a lot of great movement and progress, because Megan and I would not be here talking to you all about this if it were not for Title IX. And we're providing additional context to how Title IX could be better, and we have to acknowledge the harm it has caused, even though it has helped us progress.

Megan  18:45

But not to fear, everyone. It's actually kind of this... one of the central elements of the book, kind of the book's whole purpose, and it doesn't just leave us on this gloomy note of like, well, Title IX is not enough. So that sucks for all of us. It explains in depth how restorative justice can supplement Title IX in order to make that process more satisfying for the people who participate in it, and also to contribute generally just to a more inclusive, safer, community oriented campus culture. Yeah.

Racheal  19:22

So as you were reading this book, because I know we both took some time to look through it, do our sticky notes and everything, what was something that initially really stuck out to you, that you were like, wow, this is a really good point when talking about incorporating restorative justice into universities and Title IX processes.

Megan  19:41

I think, you know, it was really immediately, there were so many things that I was like, okay, yes, this makes a lot of sense. But particularly in the context of Title IX failing students and RJ being able to fill in the gap throughout the book they offer... what do they call them? Case in points... where they have... it's just, like, an example of whatever it was the chapter was talking about. So in the very first chapter, the case in point tells the story of, I lied. Actually, it's the second chapter, not the first one. The case in point tells the story of two students, Frankie, who is a first year student, and August, who is a second year student and is an RA, and Frankie is one of the students living in the hall that August is an RA, and Frankie is autistic, and he kind of gets a crush on August, and really just is around her too much. He'll knock on her door quite often. He'll follow her around campus. He makes... like, it becomes increasingly persistent, and just being in the space that she's in, and being around her and speaking with her, and it makes Frankie feel- oh, excuse me. It makes August feel very uncomfortable. And so she goes to the Title IX office to try to, you know, address that, try to let them know, like, I'm feeling uncomfortableabout this and I need a way to navigate this situation. And she says to them that she doesn't want him to get in trouble, and she only wants him to understand that his behavior is unacceptable and that he needs to stay away from her, and the Title IX coordinator issues a no contact order and begins an investigation. So as you can imagine, having a no contact order when you live in the same hall as someone is really complicated. In addition to that, Frankie and August have overlapping social circles. So, you know, they have... they're doing activities together. They have friends who spend time together. And because of this, because of the amount of avoiding of one another that they have to do, because of this no contact order, it starts to feel- they describe- very cumbersome for both parties and even their friend groups. They both feel embarrassed about the situation. August feels like she has been sanctioned for making the report because of how hard it is for her to have to navigate the no contact order. And Frankie is really confused about what the issues are, and he's under a lot of stress, and he's worried that he's going to make another mistake that he doesn't understand. So I really thought, like... I was like, that's such a strong example to start off with, because that's something that I know oftentimes, especially when we talk about relationship violence and sexual misconduct, we imagine, you know, like a... like, very big, scary, traumatic event that's like... very clear cut of like, what is right and what is wrong. And this case really highlights, like, the complexities of that. That Frankie didn't understand that what he was doing was wrong and was confused about why he was in trouble. And that in no way takes away from August's experience of feeling very uncomfortable and wanting it to start and wanting to stop, excuse me, and both things, those things are true at the same time. I mean, clearly something needs to be done in this situation so that August can feel comfortable where she lives and where she works, and Title IX isn't addressing that in the correct way, right? Like it heard this, and it's like, okay, well, then, like, no contact order. Like, you're uncomfortable, okay, we'll, like, stop him from making any type of contact with you at all, which, in my opinion, as I was reading it, I was like... That is such, like... a wild immediate first step when you know that these people live in the same hall as each other

Speaker 2  23:34

Exactly. And not to try to assume, like with the investigator and like how they investigated. But was there any conversations about, okay, see, you're the resident assistant in this person's hall. How can we make sure that the space feels comfortable for you to navigate, but also for him to navigate because you both live in the same community? How can we address that? Again, the Title IX process is about being just straightforward, to the point... punitive. Are you responsible or not? And it doesn't take into consideration those nuances like RJ could.

Megan  24:05

Yes, and to your point of like, not to make an assumption, but what was the investigator asking? That's something that they bring up a number of times throughout the book as well, is that when a person who has experienced harm goes to Title IX, Title IX kind of takes over, and they say, "Okay, well, you reported this, and this is what's outlined in our response to this, and these are the steps that we are going to take," and it's not necessarily a collaborative process. "Thanks for bringing this to our attention, and now this is what we are going to do, and we may not consider what it is that you want and what you need in this situation, like we are just going to base our actions off of what our policy is."

Racheal  24:49

And how disempowering is that for survivors? Right? I know our office always talks about... it's really important when we're working with survivors, we need to give them power back in their choices and how they want to navigate things, and Title IX can feel very disempowering for folks who... when they're just... "okay, we're going to take this over, and we'll get back to you about what we're going to do with next steps."

Megan  25:09

Yes, absolutely. I think another part of this situation with Frankie and August that really highlights where Title IX may fail and restorative justice can provide a better solution is acknowledging that Frankie's autistic. And that's something, again, throughout the book that they name as one of the shortfalls of Title IX. Is that these institutional policies don't always necessarily address the complexities of different people's different understandings of the world based off their identities. And so in this situation, we have someone who's autistic, who names that he doesn't necessarily understand social cues, and he's not 100% aware when he's like, doing something wrong. But when that's pointed out to him, he immediately feels bad about it. He says, like, I don't like that I made her feel that way, and I would like to do something for her not to feel that way. Which, again, once you add in that, like, there was a no contact order... it's like, if that's what someone's saying to you, if you go to them and you're like, "Hey, you made this person feel really uncomfortable," and their response is, "I don't like that I did that. I would like to change that." Why is the response to that like, "okay, no contact order until we do our investigation and work out what's going on." Like, you have someone who already has accepted responsibility for what they've done and has indicated that they want to make changes to remedy the situation. And so it seems illogical to me that the no contact order would be the next step, rather than asking, "Okay, what do you nee to able to do that?" Which is exactly what restorative justice aims to do. Like you have the want for accountability, and it's like, how do we support you in moving toward that accountability.

Racheal  27:01

Definitely, that's kind of a good segue too, because also this book mentions that RJ can be used as a tool for education. So referring back to like... Frankie wants to better understand, like, how he can do better, and like, even take accountability for the harm that he caused, and wants to understand how he can do better so that August doesn't feel uncomfortable around him. That could have been an opportunity in that case, and we'll talk probably more about like the end result later, but that could have been a good opportunity for the Title IX office to say, "Hey, okay, maybe we can provide some education and some resources to help you better understand why your behavior is being like perceived as harmful by August." But without that, how is Frankie ever going to be able to know in the future when he's interacting with someone he might have a crush on... these behaviors are inappropriate, and these behaviors are more socially appropriate, and they're behaviors I can engage with that won't potentially make this person feel uncomfortable around me.

Megan  27:55

Yes, absolutely. And I love that you brought that up, because that's something that they talk about often throughout the book as well, is that that's that's why everyone is at a university form right? Like, the cornerstone of what a university is is education. And with all of these conflicts that happen, with the misconduct that happens, with everything... there's learning opportunities within that. And so much of the education- right- is focused on academics and the classes that you're taking. But I think that... I know that for me as a student, for my fellow students, it's about more than just, like, taking notes in class and having like, a good academic understanding. Like the time that we spent in college would be useful for us to like, grow and learn as people and as humans and as community members. And I think that that's something that the institutions themselves acknowledge as one of their goals. I know... I'm a student at Metro... Go Road Runners. Hope that you're listening to this President Davidson, hello. But I know that Metro has a core set of values about who we are as a university, and they use the acronym, CADRE, right? And the first letter... and that C stands for community, so that's one of thelargest values of MSU Denver, right? And I think that, as I was reading this book, and we were talking about, like, the culture of the communities and campus culture, I think I kept coming back to that with MSU Denver. Like I go to a school that, like, one of the things that we value most is community. And as I read through the book, restorative justice really seems like the more community-centered framework. And so part of, like, being a student on this campus is not just learning in an academic context, but also learning how to be a good community member. And I think this book did a great job of highlighting, like, how restorative justice... both as a response to harm, as we're talking about in this situation with Frankie and August, but also just as, like... a like, a larger like, like cultural initiative gives a lot of potential for us to learn how to be better community members. It talks about in the book, like it's not just this level of like responding to harm, that restorative justice is involved in. At one of the points in the book, they talk about a whole campus approach to restorative justice. So we have what we've been talking about, the response to harm, that's actually kind of, it's one of the higher tiers. What's at the foundation of the whole campus approach is the routines, rituals and realities of the institution. So that talks about the institution's habits, their traditions. What's going on, actually, like day to day on the campus, both like within the students, within administration, with the faculty and staff, that creates the culture that exists on the campus. And then the tier above that focuses on relationship building. So that centers on improving interpersonal skills for individuals within the campus community. So I think when we talk about, like, what you brought up, Racheal, all these, like, learning opportunities that we have. When we talk about these learning opportunities, restorative justice gives us all these different pathways to learn how to be better community members, to learn how to be better citizens, learn how to understand ourselves more, to be in better relationship with ourselves and with one another, even outside of just a response to harm. Proactively, if we have restorative justice values on our campuses, we'll be able to understand each other better. We'll be able to take more accountability for the things that we've done without fearing like being punished. 

Racheal  32:04

That accountability, really admitting to the harm that we've caused, kind of going on that too, when you were talking about like the routines, rituals, realities and the relationship building, this book also talked about, how do we create psychological safety for everyone on our campuses? And I think especially when we're thinking about people who cause harm, it's really important that they feel psychologically safe at their institutions. I know me as a staff member, I'm constantly getting the messaging that staff, it is your it's part of your job to help us with retention. It's no secret that a lot of people are choosing not to go to higher education or universities or just leaving school, because, for whatever reason, right? And I know we're getting a lot of messaging like, hey, staff, you are a part of this. You need to support retention. And I feel like if we create more psychological safety for everyone on campus, including folks who perpetrate harm, whether it was intentional or not, that can really help with retention, because again, Title IX is very punitive, so if someone is found responsible for something, they are punished. And oftentimes that leads to folks feeling really isolated and feeling like they have this label on them and can't reintegrate back into our communities. And that might make people choose to leave school or become very resentful of the institution. So RJ can really help us acknowledge the person who's caused harm and say, "Hey, we don't want to isolate you. We want to bring you back into our community, because we value you as a person, and we also want you to access the tools of education that we're all able to access." And that's really powerful.

Speaker 1  33:33

And I love that you brought that up, because this is a really tricky conversation to have, right? One in which we highlight the importance of seeing the humanity in everybody, including people who have caused harm. So before we get into this conversation... Racheal and I, we can go off on this for sure... it is important to me that we outrightly say that having understanding, empathy and grace for people who have caused harm in no way means that you're telling them that what they did is okay. Racheal and I will certainly never say that or hold that belief. I can guarantee that no one in the Phoenix Center office holds that belief. And we also do understand that if you want people as individuals to change, and if we want our society collectively to change in the ways that would lessen instances of interpersonal violence, a crucial part of that is believing in people's capacity to change, even people who cause harm, and understanding that they do have their own needs that need to be addressed in order for them to do that. So just my little disclaimer, as we speak compassionately about these people, we are not in any way trying to suggest that what they did is fine and that we don't need to worry about it. I think Rachel highlighted that Title IX is a punitive process, and she mentioned it earlier as well, its similarities to the criminal legal system, and.... When I think about that comparison, and when I think about... I know more about the criminal legal system than I do about Title IX. So I found myself going back to that comparison quite often as I read this book, and just generally when I consider restorative justice in a campus context. And something that comes up for me a lot with it is... I wonder how much the threat of punishment interferes with someone's ability to take accountability. Because if taking accountability means that you're admitting to something that comes with any type of punishment, but particularly one that's hefty, like in the instance of the criminal legal system, a prison sentence. In the instance of Title IX, like possible suspension or expulsion... Like, how motivating is that for you just to deny what happened? I'm wondering what your thoughts on that are, Racheal, as someone who's worked in both the criminal legal system and, well... not within it, next to it, alongside it. And also at the Phoenix Center, an organization that does survivor advocacy on a campus.

Racheal  36:11

Yeah, you bring up a really good point. Because even if we were to take it back to when we were kids, right, or even thinking about me as a child, if I did something that was against a rule or that was harmful. If I knew I was going to get in trouble with my parent or an authority figure for doing that thing, I wasn't going to admit I did that because, like, well, I don't want to get in trouble for this. But the... in the moments in my upbringing when I had adults say, hey, I want to have a conversation about what happened, to see... get a better understanding of what this was. What were you thinking? And how can we try to make sure this doesn't happen again? I was more receptive to being honest and open about "this is my perspective." I didn't realize I caused harm, or I didn't realize I shouldn't have been doing this thing, and I was more comfortable taking accountability because it was more of a conversation, and I wasn't feeling like I was being punished, or someone was making a judgment about my character. And yeah, the legal system, civil system, Title IX, that's often what it is. We're not trying to have a conversation to better understand the context of what something happened in. It's more so what policy or law was violated, and that's all that matters. The context and the complexities don't come into that.

Megan  37:26

And how have you seen that, even when those systems, like, function as they're designed to, and whatever policy or law was violated, they're able to prove that it was and the punishment happens. Do you see, really, other than the punishment... like, what are the outcomes? Like, is harm being addressed? Like, is justice happening? Are the people who are harmed receiving what it is they need to move past it?

Racheal  37:57

I'm gonna say no, especially if we look at, like, recidivism rates, if we specifically think about like, forms of interpersonal violence, oftentimes, folks who inflict forms of interpersonal violence, intimate partner violence, on someone, let's say they are charged, found guilty, they're sentenced to something. Oftentimes they just recommit or recidivize again. They didn't learn anything from that punishment. Sometimes folks even become very resentful, and they become even more angry, and almost feel like they need to dig their heels into the ground to say like this is why I was right in the situation, and I'm angry that I was punished for something or forced to be held accountable for something that I don't perceive I did anything wrong in the context of what I'm being punished for. So, again, I think those systems, they aren't there to truly help people understand why something was harmful and help folks try to do better. It's more so just we're going to punish you, isolate you, put this label on you. And I think the thought process behind that is like, well, if we shame you enough, then you won't do it again, because you don't want to be shamed. And shame is not a good factor for trying to change behavior.

Megan  39:08

And I think when we look at the flip side of that, like when, again, these systems function as they're supposed to, and there's an investigative process, and whether we're talking about Title Nine, there's the investigative process, and then there's the hearing, and then they decide if the thing happened or not and what needs to happen when the results of that investigation are either we can't prove that the thing happened or something happened, but not in a way that actually constitutes a policy violation. That doesn't necessarily mean that the thing didn't happen, I just mean that it wasn't a high enough standard, or that the standard of proof couldn't be met. And then what's the result of that afterward, for both parties, but particularly for the person who was harmed, yeah, if they still have that experience of harm, but the institution that's supposed to be supporting them says, Sorry, there's nothing we can do about. That. Where does that leave them?

Racheal  40:01

For sure. And, like, survivors I know... oftentimes, like, Title IX offices or the legal system will say, "Hey, here's therapy options, here's this resource." But that... just depending on like survivors and their own identities, maybe those options don't feel accessible to them, or they don't feel like those are going to be helpful in their healing. So even if the intention is, well, here's a resource. You know, sorry, this didn't work out, but good luck with your healing. It's not helpful for a lot of survivors. It really needs to be more individualized and focused on what does a specific survivor need for their specific healing after experiencing a specific form of harm? And I feel like a lot the legal system and Title IX system they don't want to create... I'm assuming, so y'all don't come for me. My assumption and belief is that they don't want to take the time and the space to actually create that time to actually get to know what survivors need for their healing and all the things, because that costs money. We live in a capitalistic country, and time costs money, so they're trying to figure out the quickest solutions to get people through the door, and that doesn't actually address the issues that are at play.

Megan  41:08

And I think that's where restorative justice as a supplementation to... we're going to bring it back. I know y'all. We've been making the criminal legal... we're going to bring it back just to campus now, but having restorative justice both as a supplement to Title IX policies, and then in some instances it exists outside of them, seems to be like a great solution to these downfalls and gaps that exist in the Title IX process that we've been talking about because, again, like... its focus is on like harm happened, and what do people need? Yeah, rather than like, oh, there's been an accusation that now requires an incredibly lengthy investigative process. And even if this all goes exactly as it should, the supports that everyone involved needs aren't necessarily built in to this investigation, into this hearing and to the response to whatever the conclusion of the hearing is, whereas restorative justice wants to explicitly address like, what does everyone need to heal from this and to grow from this? Rachel... so we have talked about so many things that we think are great about restorative justice. We voice our concerns about Title IX, all of that's great, but how do we actually make that happen on a campus, which this book did a great job of addressing. Again, that was like kind of its central point was, "how do we make this happen on a campus?" And so Racheal, was there anything from reading those sections of the book that particularly stood out to you?

Racheal  42:42

Yeah, something I appreciate that the authors did. They didn't make it seem like this could be a quick integration process. They're very realistic. They acknowledge that this will likely be a slow process, especially if your institution is not really cozy up, cozied up to the idea of integrating restorative justice into the Title IX process. So like you mentioned, they gave up a lot of like tangible steps for how to slowly try to get this integrated. But a lot of it does just depend on the institution. So creating a committee to read over the current institutions policies and then read over current Title IX regulations and seeing, okay, where does our institution's policies and the current Title IX regulations align, and where can we potentially fit restorative justice into our Title IX processes with the investigation and all the things that go into that so being really intentional with like going through these things and even getting an understanding for the campus community, what are the perceptions of restorative justice by students, faculty, staff? How do students, faculty and staff feel towards the institution? It can be really hard to get buy in from those really important community members on campuses, because a lot of folks share that they have institutional betrayal, and they feel like they have tried to go to the institution, whether it's through Title IX or other systemic processes that happen within institutions, and they feel like they were just left out in the wind. They didn't get the support they need, or maybe folks within their own communities. They witnessed them really struggle in the Title IX process or in other systems. So they've developed, they've developed this distrust with their institution. So a lot of that groundwork piece is understanding what are the policies that we need to be aware of, and how is the... what is the current environment and thought process around potentially integrating this? Because there... that can be a barrier within itself. Maybe students, faculty, staff do not trust that executive leadership would actually take the time that they would need to actually understand how this works and integrate into things. So then another piece of that would be, how do we get the buy in of executive leadership? How do we get buy in of General Counsel? So the attorney, legal people at universities to show their commitment to this and show active steps. Towards trying to integrate that process into a lot of these that process into Title IX processes. So it's a lot of back end work that can take a while. But I did really appreciate them discussing that, because let's say all of those things work out perfectly... the community on the campus, once RJ executive leadership says, "Yes, this is something we want to do," then there's going to be this piece of okay, well, how are we going to institute this? Are we going to have the Title IX investigators have some RJ training? Do we need to onboard people into the Title IX office who only do RJ so we have the Title IX investigation piece and RJ piece somewhat separate, but these folks are still working in collaboration with one another in the same office, just so everyone is clear about the policies and the communication that's going on in that office. Or do we just need to have a separate office outside of the Title IX office handling RJ, and there could be some type of referral process for that. So that is also going to be dependent on the institution. What are the financial resources that institution has. And again, how much are they willing to how much work are they really willing to put into this? And then kind of just taking it from there, it's really important to have like assessment pieces if folks do end up integrating RJ to see what work in these processes, what could be improved based off of what the folks who were engaged in this process shared. So it's just a lot of back end work that institutions really need to be willing to get behind and prove to their communities that they're committed to, so that they can get the buy in, for folks to feel like they can trust that process, especially if it's coming out of a Title nineIXoffice where there's a lot of mistrust already.

Megan  46:42

And I think that last point that you made, and then you spoke about it more earlier on, I think that brings us back to what we were talking about earlier, about learning opportunities and that can extend beyond the students, right? Like the entire campus has these, like, incredible opportunities to think, like, wow, how do we, like, build relationships with one another in order to make this happen? Like, if we're getting feedback that people have mistrust in the Title IX office, or if they have mistrust in the way that we handle these situations, or people aren't necessarily feeling supported, you know, that's a great opportunity to learn how to address that, to learn how to make repairs, like within those relationships, and then to move beyond that, and to say, Okay, well, we're going to create a different culture surrounding these processes that makes everybody feel more supported. So really, just learning for the whole campus, which is great, like we're all here because we're lifelong learners, right? So really, that's almost like an RJ process within itself, you know, just on a much larger scale.

Megan  47:39

Racheal  50:16

LIke, that transparency piece too, right? So if it is a scenario where it's not appropriate for RJ, just providing transparency to whoever is in that process of the party, say, hey, we hear that you would like to be an RJ process to be transparent. This is why it cannot be and not to say that will make things less harmful for the parties involved. But transparency can really help rebuild that trust that is potentially lost or being questioned during that process. And yeah, a rubric is amazing, especially for academics in higher education. Yeah, already a part of who we are as a university language really helps get that buy in, I think, yes.

Megan  50:58

And I think to your point about transparency, it's another thing that I thought was, like a great strength of these rubrics, as... You have for every person who participates in this process, like you're... you have this set of standards, like, it's, it's written into the policy. It's something that is accepted by everyone who works in like, any aspect of where Title IX or RJ might be involved, it's this, like, agreed upon set of standards and regulations, so that internally, there's this idea of, like, consistency and everyone's on the same page. But also, when we're working with the people who want to access the services, we can be honest and upfront with them. We can tell them, This is what we are able to offer you as an institution, and this is what this process will look like. And to the point you're making, like, that's great, and being able to create trust, right? And that's something that people identify as frustrations of the Title IX process is they're like, I had no idea what was going on. It wasn't transparency with what was happening. I was very confused throughout the proceedings, like, I couldn't get information about specific things. And so when you have this restorative justice that comes with a rubric you're like... this is exactly what you can expect, and this is what's going to happen, and it lets people, you know, we were talking about autonomy and agency earlier...

Racheal  52:16

Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, how empowering is that for survivors to get something physical? If they're like... if they need something physical to look at, and it really gives them choice and option around what they want to do and what they can expect. And again, that's really reempowering... empowering for survivors to have.

Megan  52:33

So Rachel and I read this book and are discussing this on the podcast. One, obviously we're very interested in restorative justice, but in a more focused way, we absolutely do have a vision of restorative justice processes existing on the Auraria campus. That's a vision that we know, that we share with some people already. MSU Denver actually- again, go Road Runners- already has a restorative justice process that exists within the Dean's Office, and they also have a Restorative Justice Coalition. So there's already been student conduct violations being addressed through a restorative justice process on this campus, which is something that makes me so happy to know. And even if... I know, Racheal... that the Community College of Denver also has expressed, like, interest in having restorative justice practices.

Racheal  53:24

Yeah, so they, from my understanding, they've expressed... they have a program. I don't know how much it's been utilized, because I know their case management gets really busy. And I know CU Denver is also trying to grow some of their restorative justice practices. I know they've used maybe a couple in housing, if I remember correctly. But yeah, there's definitely an interest. So that's really positive to kind of reflect the campus interest and culture around wanting to integrate these processes into our campus community

Speaker 1  53:53

For us at the Phoenix center, of course, with the work that we do, that looks like using restorative justice to address interpersonal violence. Which is something that is trickier for some people to get on board with, again, because I said earlier, when we talk about interpersonal violence, we're talking about something deeply personal and very serious, and so people want that to be addressed in a way that feels appropriate to the harm that's been caused. And because restorative justice is so far outside of how we conceptualize justice to happen and what that should look like, it can be tricky for people to get on board with that, right? So we just want to contextualize that a little bit from the perspective of the Phoenix Center. So Rachel and I are going to take a second to discuss the values of the Phoenix Center, why we believe that restorative justice is something that is not just a viable option to respond to interpersonal violence, but actually is like a really incredibly powerful one in the context of transforming our communities to prevent interpersonal violence, and would be an empowering approach to addressing it when it does happen.

Speaker 2  55:01

I'm happy to kick it off, so I'll just read you all our mission, just to show how our values at our office reflect this commitment to enter to restorative justice. "The Phoenix Center at Auraria's mission is to provide education and comprehensive victim services to ensure survivors may access their particular healing journey, work to mitigate the impact of interpersonal violence on their pursuits of goals, and create a trauma informed and prevention focused campus environment." So a lot of what we talked about today, with what this book was talking about, really does align with what our goals are and our mission is for our office. We're specifically thinking about education and prevention focused campus environment. Again, RJ is an educational tool. This is something we can use to educate folks about how to address conflicts, how to have clear communication, how to address when harm is happening. So something that we're very dedicated to and for, the victim service piece so many times, the advocates share with our team that survivors come into our office and they're not wanting punishment for the person who caused them harm. They just want to understand why. They want this person to go to therapy. They want this person to understand what coercion is. That is their goal, and right now, we don't have a lot of options to send them to. We do have a new connection with RAIV. I know Megan will be interviewing them, and they will be joining this podcast series. They do amazing work in the community. But until we were able to find those folks, we didn't have a lot of places to send survivors who maybe wanted to have a conversation with the person who harmed them, or just wanted a restorative justice process so they can process everything they've experienced and figure out their healing. So RJ really just aligns with that as well, because we are very survivor focused and centered, and we want to do work that's going to benefit the survivors that we're engaging with on campus.

Megan  56:53

Thank you, Rachel. I think another really important value of the Phoenix center is that... I believe that we share with all three institutions on this campus... is that the work that we do is done through an anti oppressive framework. And so when we think about the responses to harm that exist now, and we talk about this punitive framework, we have to acknowledge that exists within like a colonial white supremacist idea of what justice is, especially looking at the criminal legal system's response to harm. We know the criminal legal system is rooted in classism and racism. We know that it disproportionately impacts poor people and people of color, especially, but really any number of marginalized identities. And even though, of course, Title IX is not in the criminal legal system, we know that it still is structured in the same way that a punitive process is, and that's something that we certainly don't love. I certainly... I won't speak on behalf of the entire Phoenix center right now...

Racheal  58:02

I will. We don't love that.

Megan  58:07

We don't want systems that are based off of the same principles as these oppressive systems to exist in our communities and to be the way that harm is addressed. We want systems that work to dismantle those larger systemic oppressions as they address the like immediate instances of harm that are happening on campuses and just in our communities in general. We don't want the response to harm to be something that- although it might feel like some sense of justice and is a part of a larger system- that reinforces other injustices. 

Racheal  58:47

That reminds me of a quote from Audre Lorde as you were talking. I mean, it says, "For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house." So again, like, like you were mentioning, like, we can't dismantle these systems within the systems. We need to do something different.

Megan  59:03

And what a better place than to start something like that than on a college campus, right? I think about this often MSU Denver, we've been... we've been going through a little, like, rebranding phase the past couple of years now, and one of the biggest taglines for MSU Denver right now is "Changemakers Wanted". Like, that's who we're advertising to. Like we're saying, if you are wanting to go to school because you want to make a positive impact in your community, in the country, in the world, whatever scale you want to do that at, like... we want you here. And I think that in encouraging like, those types of students to come in here. It makes so much sense to me to see changes like this happening, especially in a campus that, I mean, I don't know too much about CU Denver and CCD, but I know that MSU Denver, like with our values and everything, we're very social justice oriented, right? Like we're a Hispanic Serving Institution. We have the lowest tuition rates of any four year university in the state, and those are things that you know, MSU Denver is very proud of. The access to education that the university is able to offer everyone, particularly people with marginalized identities. And so it makes so much sense to me as an MSU Denver student that the changes that we would be making are things that would disrupt these systems. Are things that would create these like beautiful new systems that serve, obviously, to address the immediate harms, but then also work on a larger level to dismantle the oppressive systems that are leading to us even having marginalized students in the first place, right? Like the whole point of it is to get rid of barriers, to create more access for people. And for me, restorative justice really like, is a huge opportunity to do that like in a meaningful way in our campus community, in a way that's going to have far reaching impacts. Because every student who comes through MSU Denver who interacts with this restorative justice framework, again, because it's not just in response to harm. Like it's something that would transform the campus's culture. They're going to have these values, right, of wanting to center community, of wanting to build healthy relationships, of being open and willing to accept accountability, of wanting to repair harm with one another. And then everywhere they go in the world after they graduate, they're going to bring those skills with them, and that's going to transform things. And I think that's beautiful. That's my vision of RJ on campus, and we're going to wrap up the podcast now. y'all. Thanks for sticking it out with us. This is kind of a long one, so I hope you made it all the way to the end. If you didn't, I forgive you, not that you're hearing that anyway, because... but we do want to leave everyone with some things to consider. I just talked about, like my beautiful, lovely vision of RJ on campus. And so we want to ask everyone listening, what do you think about restorative justice? What is your vision for what that looks like? How do you think that the campus culture at large, but like your particularly, your particular University's culture, is compatible with restorative justice? Are these things that you want to see on your campus? What ideas do you have for what that could look like?

Racheal  1:02:28

And I maybe to like bounce off of that. Maybe start having conversations with your peers about this. Maybe you listen to this podcast. Maybe you got all the way through it, but maybe your peers didn't. So maybe you bring up, hey, I listened to this podcast about restorative justice and bringing it to campus. What do you know about restorative justice? Can you potentially see us using this as a way to resolve conflict, whether even just in your friend group or on a larger scale, in your specific college you're in for your degree at the larger university level? So just explore, how can you begin to create community around this idea of bringing restorative justice onto this campus and creating this culture where restorative justice reflects the culture of your campus.

Megan  1:03:08

That's all we have for you today, folks. Again, thanks for tuning into this episode, and keep an eye out for the following podcasts in this series right now. We definitely have two scheduled. I am going to be speaking with the lovely folks who are running MSU Denver's RJ program right now. That's going to be our next episode. And then Racheal mentioned that we will also be doing an episode with some members of RAIV, which is Restorative Approaches to Intimate Violence, and they are not on campus specifically. They do restorative justice in the community, but it is specifically focused on intimate violence. Very much looking forward to those podcasts as well, and there will be a lot for everyone to learn. So keep an eye out for those. 

Megan  1:03:57

If you are someone you know is experiencing interpersonal violence, you can visit us at our office in Tivoli. Two to seven. Call us on our free and confidential 24/7, Helpline at 303-556-2255, or reach out to us through our website, the pca.org. Thank you.