Final Season of Sex Education

It's our first episode of the Spring 2024 semester!

Can you believe the final season of Sex Education premiered on Netflix a while ago?! 

Neither can we.

Listen to what our violence prevention educators Carolyne (she/her) and Caitlin (she/her) had to say about themes they notice in this final season!

If you are in crisis and need immediate support, please call our 24/7 interpersonal violence helpline at 303-556-2255.

Request an Appointment with an Advocate at
https://www.thepca.org/online-appointment-request

Request a Violence Prevention Presentation at
https://www.thepca.org/prevention-education

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Carolyne Lanyero, Caitlin Cornell

Carolyne Lanyero  00:00

Hi, you're listening to the Phoenix cast my name is Caroline. And today I am joined with 

Caitlin Cornell  00:23

Caitlin.

Carolyne Lanyero  00:25

And we are violence prevention education interns here at the PCA. And Caitlin, can you tell the listeners any new listeners a little bit more about yourself? 

Caitlin Cornell  00:34

Yeah, so I'm a violence prevention education intern. As Caroline said, I joined this year, and I've had a lot of fun doing outreach activities, I really enjoy doing stuff with media literacy. So part of that has been you know, what we're talking about today, and just, you know, continuing to engage with a lot of these issues.

Carolyne Lanyero  00:49

 Awesome. Thank you. So as some of you may know, for this episode, we're going to be diving into the new season of sex education. And so just starting off, did you have any expectations for this season? At all? 

Caitlin Cornell  01:02

Yeah, well, I feel like there were a lot of expectations just because it was the finale season. So everybody kind of expected a lot wanted everything tied really neatly with a bow. And I guess I kind of thought that we'd see a lot of the same storylines continued. And then like, that wasn't the case. And that wasn't a bad thing. But I was a little shocked by how many characters you know, we didn't see from past seasons, and how many new, like new players we had. Also they left Moordale! Because I know, I know, it was kind of like a dumpster fire. But the time they left, but still, I was surprised. So I kind of just had those expectations for sure, then always, the expectations of continuing to kind of deal with, you know, different different identities, different ways that we interact with those identities and how that intersects with intimacy. So 

Carolyne Lanyero  01:02

no, definitely, I'd say yeah, holding on to the same thing. I'd say I wasn't expecting all the different, like storylines that they brought in. I felt like why, yeah. And throughout the show, and then also just like, maintaining some of the different themes that they'd had in the past. And of course, like, the sex therapy and whatnot, and like the vulnerability and discussions. Yeah, so some of the one of the identities that I saw that I liked that they included, and when I went online, and I looked it up on Reddit, I know a lot of people also mentioned that they really experienced they really appreciated O'S experience as an ace individual and talking about that. And they said that for them, that was one of the most like, realistic portrayals that they could identify with. So I thought that was yeah, that was awesome to see.

Caitlin Cornell  01:40

 And I think they handled that well, that it wasn't really convenient, right, that there was a lot of difficulty around that, or maybe some crossed wires that does somehing that even as a purported therapist, they had a hard time coming to terms with that. So I like too that you still see that when it comes to ourselves like identity is still hard, or Yeah, figuring out those things. And sharing those things is still difficult, even if we are like teenage sex therapists, which I think in itself is kind of a lot to deal with. I thought that was really cool, too. I also liked that they kind of expanded during these other characters. So we see Cal continuing in their transition, we also see a ton of new characters continuing to find new roles in their lives. So I thought that was really cool. You know, we see Amy kind of getting more comfortable with intimacy, which I thought was really cool. And then we also see a couple other characters maybe experimenting with sexuality. I think they still kind of left that as a question mark for Jackson. But I still think that I really liked the way that that was portrayed. And that like, it was okay for him to, you know, to react to different situations and like, what he liked or didn't like, and have a conversation about like, "oh, you know, like, does this what does this mean for me?" Yeah. How do I construct, like, you know, my identity for myself? And what does that look like, you know, in my interactions with partners, and I think that a lot of people are really afraid of that that you know, queerness is a bad thing, you know, and, and then with him, you know, he's kind of like, Oh, does this mean this, it's okay to explore that. So I kind of liked leaving that space open for exploration as well. 

Carolyne Lanyero  03:47

And I also think it was interesting, just for at least Jackson, the idea that like certain specific acts, even though he was doing it with someone who was the woman and he identifies as straight, he's still exactly, saw that as more like, a thing that he thought that he might be clear because of that. So I thought, it's interesting that they dove into that. And I think that's a lot of misconceptions that people often have, and they ascribe, like, a certain action to like, an identity that doesn't match with theirs. 

Caitlin Cornell  03:48

Yeah, for sure. I think that also kind of helps deconstruct some of the stereotypes as well. You know, because as much as you know, it's really fun and easy to meet people like oh, yes, like, straight people, the straight's do that, or like the gays do that, you know, and like it is it is really entertaining. But also, I feel like it leads to these very one dimensional depictions of like, what these relationships look like. And I think for him, even though like we see at the end, he's pretty comfortable in his identity as a straight man. It is something that, you know, he initially wasn't sure about just because he hadn't seen other people, you know, with experiences like him be comfortable with it.

Carolyne Lanyero  04:38

 Yeah. 

Caitlin Cornell  04:38

And I think so just kind of expanding those definitions and diving into the nuances. That's something that the show always does really well, but that's something I think that they really did nail this season, even if like there was just an information overload, like  There were definitely some plot points that were stronger than others. You know, we got into a little bit ago. But I think that was one that stood out for me.

Carolyne Lanyero  05:07

 No, definitely for sure. And I think, um No, definitely for sure. And I think what you had mentioned earlier about, like the various identities and the depictions of these different identities and these different experiences, it's just how also like realistic and how awkward that they make these different experiences and these different sexual experiences. And one thing that comes up to mind specifically is when Abby didn't want to have sex with Roman and talking about, and when we found out the reason why Oh, yes, also spoilers for anyone who wants to watch season very many spoilers. But they she mentioned the reason why. And she said, Oh, it's because you moan really weirdly, when we're having sex. And it was like, huh, and I thought, you know, that would be something that's very realistic for a teenager though, and like a problem that a teenager would actually face? And so like, could you talk a little bit more about that? Because I know, you said it in a really great way earlier and really succinctly.  Yeah, no, that was something that's always been a fit. One of my favorite things about the show in general. And that I think, is a continued theme through the fourth season is that like, sex is awkward, like, it's just, it's gonna be awkward, and like, you know, especially like, as young adults, like, you know, navigating intimacy for the first time. You know, I think it's really important to see this kind of representation where, like, they stumble, and the communication sucks. And, you know, people are weird about stuff, and, you know, things aren't perfect, and that's okay. And you know, rather than just instantly abandoning these things, and like, sometimes we do see that happen, right, like, we do see kind of that knee jerk reaction with Otis in earlier seasons. And he's like, Oh, my God, I'm terrible at sex, I'm ever gonna do it again, what comes to mind, like the fingering incident,

Caitlin Cornell  07:03

so I think just seeing that, you know, there are different paths towards that. And that like communication is super important to getting there for people and to be uncomfortable with that, because it is vulnerable. And I think this show thisb is something that sex ed doesn't let you forget ever is that like, sex and physical intimacy are really vulnerable, really vulnerable. And that's something that we like to ignore kind of conveniently. 

Carolyne Lanyero  07:23

And I like going off of that, how they also like portray and kind of, it's not really something that they say outright, necessarily, but kind of the idea that also if you maybe like feel uncomfortable, or something's not working out for you, in this relationship, it may just be that that person is not right for you, doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. Or that like sex is not meant for you or something was not meant for you. It just means that yeah, that person may not be for you, and doing that specific activity with that person may not be what's best for you. So yeah, I think I really liked the theme of just exploration and finding out what works and really communicating throughout that. But one thing that you also mentioned, that was a big theme throughout the season was Cal's transition. And I think, yeah, I really liked how they portrayed that and just really had that discussion, because I think oftentimes, from my experience, what I see regarding people who are transitioning is that it's like, oh my gosh, like, I am coming out like I'm transitioning, now my life is perfect happily ever after. And I really had like how they were like, no, like, there's still a lot of barriers to transitioning. And there's still a lot of issues and struggles that come with that. Both like internalized and then also systemic and institutionalized as well. And I think like one thing, just talking about like Cal's body dysmorphia throughout this and then also not being able to get top surgery just because of how expensive it is and insurance doesn't cover those things. And I think while it does take place in the UK, a lot of those things are applicable to the US as well. 

Caitlin Cornell  08:55

Oh, absolutely. And I also do like the way that they talk about how lack of community is also a huge barrier because you see, we see Cal on the earlier episodes really struggling with the fact that they don't know what's normal anymore. They don't know, you know, what's going on, and they're really freaked out by it, especially when you see you know, like how those hormones interact with their sex drive, and, you know, just kind of their interactions with other people and they're really confused. And I think, you know, Otis obviously, like doesn't have that experience himself. But you know, just even having an intermediator to be like, hey, no, it's okay. This is something you're supposed to be experiencing, but like that also shouldn't have to come from a unqualified teenage sex therapist. So I think that they do a really great job of pointing out like, hey, there's huge inequity, not just systemically but also socially within the community because for sure, I think we often take community as a resource for granted but time and time again, I feel like this season that was one of like, the big themes for me was like, not only that, that exploration right, and that continued just like awkwardness, but also community in general and like how it can like help you know, like foment the formation of you know, identities for us, but also how the lack of it can be really difficult.

Carolyne Lanyero  10:01

 Yeah, definitely. And I think along the lines of community, they also showed a lot of acceptance and rejection, which is really big for teenagers just in general. And they're really social at that age. And just the being in the in group with your peers is really important for them. And so yeah, like you mentioned, the really a lot of the community was a really big aspect in the show, like you could see Maeve's community standing behind her when her mother passed away. And then you can also see the community aspect for Amy, and you've seen this and other seasons too, but helping her heal in that process. And then also Viv's community as well. And we'll definitely touch on this later. But also with her when she was experiencing relationship violence. And then yeah, just there was a lot of community there to be able to support someone. And then just seeing when someone doesn't have that good community. I also liked just O's storyline, just that aspect of it, I'll there's some things I didn't like about it. But in terms of how they wrote her character, but I really liked the idea of looking at what happens when there is no community to help you. And they talked about a little bit about how being like an only person of color in this white community where they weren't accepted, and then having them feeling the need to then pull Ruby down in order to feel some sort of acceptance for themselves. Yeah, that was really I feel like that just really hits on the teenage experience overall. 

Caitlin Cornell  11:27

Oh, for sure. And I also just want to talk about Ruby too, because I think we're sort of I'm it's so interesting this season, because for the first three seasons, she kind of played the same character as, you know, this, this bitch who actually has feelings, but like in a very surface level way, right? It's that like, Oh, she can be soft, romantically, right? And that she can, you know, like, connect with people beyond just like the veneer of popularity. But then, like, we see that popularity suddenly yanked away, and she has a lot more stuff to do a lot more internal work to do to kind of figure out where she fits now. 

Carolyne Lanyero  11:58

Yeah. 

Caitlin Cornell  11:59

So that that was really interesting to see, like how, you know, she kind of navigates changing social structures, but also about how like, sometimes we think the work is done, and it's not, like, there's a lot more stuff to figure out because she, I think this season, we kind of go into it with the expectation that she's one  character who has no crazy crap to deal with. And that's totally flipped on its head and realize, yeah, like she actually has not been able to, like, be authentic, right, like a lot of her identity and a lot of the way that she portrayed herself to her peers was a defense mechanism. Yeah, definitely. It's, I think, just unpacking that, and also being okay with the fact that like, yeah, like childhood bullying may seem insignificant, but also like, if it's important to you, it's important to you, because I think as a character, we see her push that away and push that aside and be like, Oh, well, whatever it happened. And then only when Otis kind of affirms that, yeah, that's a substantive experience. So she's able to accept that. 

Carolyne Lanyero  12:51

And yeah, you also see through like Ruby, feeling, untrusting of the school and the environment. And I know, like the final scene where I think they're at the fundraiser, and Ruby talks about how like, I didn't believe that people were this nice at this school, like trying to thinking about, like, that kindness that people show as a front and learning to Yeah, unpack that and learning why from her past. Like, we also get to go through as audience members with that journey on her and seeing into her past and why she may behave in certain ways and things like that. And so seeing like, exactly like you said, like the defense mechanism and her going through that process of learning how to break those down and be vulnerable. And then also a big thing for community this season also is Eric's journey of community and finding out where he fits in his community. And also we see the intersection between queer identity and religion. So is there any notes that you had on that or anything you wanted to bring up? 

Caitlin Cornell  13:57

Yeah, that was probably my favorite part of the entire season. Like not even gonna lie. I love Eric as a character. I just think he is amazing and probably like, one of the least shitty people, because like, I love like, I love seeing authentic representations of people. But every once in a while, like Otis has a problematic phase, right? Yes. Like we know this.

Carolyne Lanyero  14:14

 He has a lot of issues

Caitlin Cornell  14:15

 like Eric is a little bit too good for him. And that's okay. Like as a friend, you know, we see that wrong. 

Carolyne Lanyero  14:20

We do see that a lot this season. Eric deserves more. 

Caitlin Cornell  14:24

Right? Oh, so I love getting to kind of go on that journey with him because I feel like they kind of lampshaded that in earlier seasons. They're like oh he has family issues and stuff, but we're not going to talk about it. Yeah. And that was kind of just became like a background thing for him. We really see it brought forward here. So I loved that because I think that it speaks to like, how much bravery it takes to you know, really be yourself in a community that you know is going to be hostile to you, but also about how you know like it's okay to not want to lose that it's okay for that to be painful. It's like you know, you don't just get to perfectly cut yourself apart and you know, have to separate separate identities like it's, you can't undo that love and that connection all the time. It's not a neat or easy process. And I think just seeing that, that, you know, even if the church wasn't supportive of him in the way that he needed them to be that, you know, that didn't make it not important to him. And that's important to acknowledge is that about, I think a lot of the times we have these expectations, especially for queer folks, you know, when there's like family, church, community, like certain problematic, like, friends that, Oh, you like, you can just cut them off, you know, like, it'll be fine. And it really isn't, like, know that there's a lot of loss there. And we need to kind of, like not only honor that grief, but also not place those expectations so heavily upon them, because that's a lot of stuff to deal with, especially when you're still trying to figure out what's going on with you. 

Carolyne Lanyero  15:39

Yeah. And I think also just recognizing that, for some people, yeah, religion, there's a lot of trauma there with religion. But then for other people, yeah, it might be, they might have had those traumatic experiences in the past, but they also that's an important part for them. And that's an important foundation for them. And then also just having to navigate that, and recognizing the issues with religion, but then also seeing the positives that it can hold, and really just finding out what's right for you. And it's cool that you see Eric at the end, saying to Otis at the very end of the show being like, Hey, I actually found what I want to do I want to be a pastor. And I think it was interesting. Yeah. Just you mentioned Eric's whole storyline with him seeing like these visions of God. And I love that God was a black woman like, okay, yes. But you also see this allusion after he runs out of his baptism. You see, this allusion of Eric is Jesus wearing like the all white and extending a hand to Cal. So I thought that was very interesting. And the actress who was playing God, talking about how Eric was made a light to help others through their dark journeys, and through the darkness. So I also think it was just cool. Yeah, cool to see kind of Eric as a representation for what the future of the church could be. And as a more inclusive environment that includes more identities and recognizes not only like the hurt that has happened in the past, but also the great things that they could potentially do in the future. 

Caitlin Cornell  17:06

Yeah, I love that. I think that idea of, you know, like, you don't have to completely throw something away that you can, you know, make it change and work for you. Right, that he doesn't have to let go of this, you know, really like crucial aspect of his identity. And instead, he gets to make something that, you know, is not only you know, positive in his own life, but becomes like, you know, something for a higher purpose . I think that so I also love that scene. I think it's just adorable. And I'm just like, ah, you know, since him and Oatcake were fighting a lot of the season.

Carolyne Lanyero  17:35

Yes, and I'm so glad you mentioned that, because I love how, like for one thing with Eric's like, greater storyline, and whenever Eric get scenes, I love that because oftentimes, it can fall into like, oh, the black best friend like token character trope just there to like, support the main white character. But I feel like yeah, Eric is so much more than that. And I feel like yeah, oh, just didn't really deserve him. So I love how, when you see like, Eric, not getting the support he needs from his best friend, essentially, yeah, going and finding this like new community with him. And I like how they have that discussion of their differences. And Eric saying to Otis, like, there are going to be parts of me that you may be able to empathize with sympathize with, but you're not gonna be able to completely understand. And just Yeah, recognizing that, yeah, we hold differences between us. And then also just the greater emphasis on friendships this season. 

Caitlin Cornell  18:27

Yes.

Carolyne Lanyero  18:28

 And just other relationships, besides romantic relationships. I love whenever TV shows, movies, books, do that, and focus on friendships, because I feel like maybe I'm a little bitter or biased. But I always do get annoyed when like, such an emphasis is put on just romantic relationships. And I feel like I personally have never been in romantic relationship. But my friendships are so important to me. And so seeing how like, that plays out in my life, I wish that friendships were talked about more. 

Caitlin Cornell  19:00

Yeah, for sure. I think especially as a young woman, I, I was really annoyed with a lot of the media I was consuming when I was probably like, you know, 16-18, because you see that narrative pushes so aggressively, like, oh, you need to have a boyfriend or like you need you need to find somebody who's going to make you like a whole person. And it's like, well, Aren't I a whole person all by myself? Yeah. But also, you know, like, it's important to have friends who support and love you without, you know, any romantic attachment or without the condition of sex or the condition of physical intimacy. Because I think a lot of times that's not really exacted in an equal way, is you see, you know, this incredibly unequal focus of like, Oh, yes, you have a romantic partner then like, yeah, kind of other people.

Carolyne Lanyero  19:38

 Yes. 

Caitlin Cornell  19:38

And I think that the show really does privilege those friendships. So it's like, yeah, like, sometimes these romantic relationships, like they're very substantive. They're very important, but like, they're also not more important than you know, the relationships you already have in your life. And that like conceptualizing friendships as relationships, I think is super important. You know, because I feel like when I say relationship, everyone's like, oh, like romantic relationship. Yeah, girlfriend and Like no, like, there's plenty of other relationships. Yes. And I think just kind of like placing it under that category and being like, yeah, like, you do a lot of the same shit. You know, like you have to communicate and you know, care for somebody and really put an effort to make sure that you're doing the best you can by that person. Which, you know, I think we do we do see doesn't always happen with you Otis' and Eric's relationship. Because I think something I really liked and something that I don't think a lot of shows have done in a way that doesn't make me cringe like, physically, is the way Otis has to acknowledge his own privilege and how uncomfortable that is for him. 

Carolyne Lanyero  20:33

Yeah. 

Caitlin Cornell  20:33

Because he like, yeah, like he reacts not great. He doesn't didn't do an awesome job. But yeah, he does eventually come around to the fact that like, yeah, like, I had a knee jerk reaction to that of just like, being upset, because I didn't like the idea that, you know, I wasn't a good friend to you because of these things. But I really did have to sit with that. And I was like, yeah, like, I'm glad we saw that. But I think that is really representative of the way that a lot of people do react and realize how messy that is. And also like how that can be done in a way that's not disingenuous, because I feel like a lot of what I do see that a lot of the time, it's like, oh, well, like, I don't want to be perceived as racist, or I don't want to be perceived as misogynistic. And it's like, well, don't just say that. You need to do you need to actually do the work to you know, like, acknowledge the weight of those things. 

Carolyne Lanyero  21:16

Yeah. 

Caitlin Cornell  21:17

And, you know, he obviously, he does it in a very imperfect way. But I think he does actually make genuine strides towards that, rather than just being like, Oh, well, yeah, of course, or, you know, like that "i don't see color" or whatever. Which I think he is kind of at first, but you know, we get away from that, which is important.

Carolyne Lanyero  21:33

No, I love that. And this is kind of going away from that topic. But the idea of the kind of the presentative, um, people often like to say, like wokeness, or is presentative like acceptance and understanding, I don't know the correct term for it. But one thing that comes up to mind with me is the lack of accommodations that are available for them at the school, and you really see, like Isaac pointing out, like, "Hey, you have like these, and you spend a lot of money on these different like, potentially showy things that shows like how inclusive that your school is, but yet you I've asked you repeatedly to fix the elevator, and you have not done that, like you have not made that a priority". And then just talking about the idea of disability is a creation of like, our social environment. And if technically, I want I can't remember who essentially, like coined this definition, or coined this understanding. But I always like the saying, I've heard about people have disabilities, because there are not proper accommodations for them in society. And if we had proper accommodations, then essentially, like, those disabilities wouldn't prevent them from living their everyday lives. And so yeah, I just love like that. You get to see that performative aspect of Oh, like, these are important, and these accommodations are important. 

Caitlin Cornell  22:54

Yeah. And I feel like we see that so often institutionally, I think the word the word I that was on my mind was virtue signaling was the you know, like, Look how amazing we are, but also just like, don't look deeper than two whole inches, because we didn't actually do any of the important work.

Carolyne Lanyero  23:08

 So what did you do for the foundation? 

Caitlin Cornell  23:10

Yes, yeah, that we didn't actually, like, come at, like, we didn't approach our institutional practice with this ideology, it was clearly an afterthought. And I think that, you know, like, really kind of breaking down the differences between those approaches is that, you know, like, if disabled people aren't an essential consideration in your practice, then, like, you're not doing so great. You know, like, they can't just be like, Oh, by the way, like, think about that, like, they do have to be kind of like focalized in that. And I think, obviously, Isaac does a great job. But we see that even socially, you know, where disability is treated as an inconvenience, socially, all the time or that, you know, like, we see some discomfort when there are friends who don't want to really acknowledge it. And they're like, they're like, the very woke friends. You know, they're like, the leaders of the school and it's great. Like, we love Abby and Roman, but also we say that, like they still have work to do to  Yeah,

Carolyne Lanyero  23:55

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Caitlin Cornell  24:02

Okay, well, I love you know, that we get to see like, a very conventionally attractive guy, right, like, we see that like Jackson is positioned as like this clearly, like desirable character for the earlier seasons, who's friends with Viv. And like, even though that friendship, might start off sort of surface level, they do support each other, and they're very kind to each other. And they genuinely care about, you know, each other's emotional well being in a way that is probably one of the most reliably supportive relationships in the show. I think because everybody else gets a little shaky. But I think that they do a really good job of showing up for each other when it's important and knowing how to do that in a way that you know, is actually effective, which is to me like what a good friendship is all about, right? It's about not only like, you don't have to be the same, you don't even have to be very similar. You just have to make sure that you care about each other and really enjoy spending time together. And that's, you know, what I really like to see in media as well, is, you know, instead of the like, oh, we are the same person, or like oh, you know, we're a man and a woman We actually must be sleeping together, there's no way you can just be friends, which like, I know, old, outdated narrative, but like, damn it's persistent. So like, I like seeing, you know, another kick against that. And I was like, just because, you know, I think there is a clear effort on their part, they make time for each other, you know, like, even though like Jackson is going out and getting it and at one point, because like, we love him, but like, he do be out there

Carolyne Lanyero  25:24

he is, good for him. 

Caitlin Cornell  25:27

It's also like sex positive, right. Like, also, I do think is interesting, too, that we see very different treatment of Jackson, and Maeve when they choose to, you know, use their own sexual agency, but you know, because even the show treats that differently, and we don't ever really see that addressed, which is interesting. 

Carolyne Lanyero  25:43

Yeah.

Caitlin Cornell  25:43

 Is that you know, she becomes "'cock biter", and it says, he's just Jackson. Yes,

Carolyne Lanyero  25:48

 Yes, exactly. Yeah, I do. I guess they either didn't address in the show, but I don't know if it was sometimes it's difficult to see whether it was like a bias of our society impacting that show or whether like, it is realistic, unfortunately

Caitlin Cornell  26:01

exactly I feel like I think that was just kind of like an unconsciously baked in one, which you know, is still important to recognize sometimes, but like, regardless, like we see these people with, like very different, like, you know, ideas about sex and relationships, who still care about each other in a way that, you know, is impactful. So, I love that. And also to that point, like they, I think they do make each other better. So he helps he sees like, what a great person she is, almost brings her out of her shell. 

Carolyne Lanyero  26:01

. Yeah. So I don't know if whether the writers meant to do that to show and portray that, or whether it was just maybe I don't know, if they did, because I feel like they would have addressed it. That was  Yeah.

Caitlin Cornell  26:33

 And he realizes that, you know, he's more than just like an athlete, there was discussion with her. And he's able to kind of step beyond that identity and all the pressure from his parents. 

Carolyne Lanyero  26:41

Yes, for sure, for sure. And I think one of the things you highlighted that's so important was that support that they give to each other. And you can definitely see how the support that Jackson also gave to her and her other friends around her during her relationship with Beau. So I know we really wanted to talk about that kind of as just a good example of relationship violence. So just talking about relationship violence, for anyone who doesn't know what that is. It's one of the topics that we commonly talk about here at the PCA. And we consider it as one element of interpersonal violence, along with sexual violence and stalking. And so relationship violence is violence that occurs between two or more people in any sort of relationship. And so during the show, we kind of get to see that we get to see what we usually talk about the cycle of violence. And you see her entering in this relationship. I remember thinking of the at the beginning, there's a little bit of like, love bombing a little bit, and you just see Beau was like this very perfect partner. And then like perfect for Viv, very understanding, very supportive. And then you get to see eventually him pushing her boundaries. And you get to see the emergence of this different controlling behavior and whatnot. And then yeah, that's really the tension building time, as we like to say, and then eventually it gets to it escalates more. And you see like him use physical violence and aggression against her. And different things like that when he grabs her and won't let go. And then eventually, you see it come back down again to the stage where it's not a honeymoon anymore, but it's essentially the Oh, I'm so sorry, the apologizing trying to make up for it, stage. So just talking about that. What are some of the different things that you noticed? 

Caitlin Cornell  28:29

Yeah, there was a lot I liked about this. I think the biggest thing to me was that whenever I talk about like doing this work, right, because like I don't shut up, like ever. Yeah, so I talk about like, work all the time, because I love it. It's very fun. But like it means I also have like a lot of unfun fun facts.

Carolyne Lanyero  28:43

Yes. 

Caitlin Cornell  28:43

And so we'll get into like, anytime I ever bring up relationship violence, like people are like, oh, yeah, like, you know, like they've had people in their lives who have experienced that. And the most frequent question I've gotten has been like, oh, yeah, but I can't understand why they didn't just leave 

Carolyne Lanyero  28:55

why they don't leave. 

Caitlin Cornell  28:55

Yeah, yeah. And like, all the time, and it's, you know, I feel like we hear it so often it's like, Oh, my God, like, god dammit, you know, like, please just, like, just get it, you know, but I think this show did a really good job of showing like, why that's so difficult. You know, because initially, this is such a positive thing it's such a great thing. And then we also see firsthand how Beau tries to cut her off from her biggest support system was Jackson, right? How he tries to alienate her and isolate her from these other people who really do care about her. And then how progress how he does it progressively. You know, it's like you said he is testing her boundaries. That is like, a very manipulative tactic we see because it is on purpose, right? It's not on accident that you know, he pushes a little that he tries to get her to stop hanging out with him that he wants to hang out with her whenever she's with other people. That kind of thing. He's seeing how far you know he can go before she says no. And then it's also getting her more and more comfortable with the idea that this is what her relationship is supposed to be kind of normalizing these things in her life. So I really like that cuz I feel like we also as viewers got a little duped by him as well. Yeah, initially, we're like, Wow, he's so sweet. He's so cool. Oh, this is a little weird, but it's not crazy. Oh, this is a little weird.  And then eventually it's like holy shit, like the violence feels like it comes out of nowhere. But if you look back like, there are steps in every single episode, yeah, yeah. So I think just, you know, really putting people in that position and then showing how subversive that violence can be. But also, you know, like, how impactful it can be to have people who are supportive through that, you know, even if they don't understand it, how important it is to stick by people, when they're going through these relationships, and how important it is to continue to show up even when like, they are experiencing a lot of manipulation or when like, maybe they they can't make time for you all the time to, you know, see that and kind of recognize that like, that's not okay. And that's not normal. But that also it's not the victims fault when that's going on. 

Carolyne Lanyero  30:38

And yeah, I also like how they approached, like, first of all, just so like you mentioned, we usually lead with a statistic as well, when people often ask like, Oh, why don't they leave? with that explanation Depending on the study, what research has seen, it can take around seven to 10 times on average for a survivor to leave an abusive relationship. And continuing with that, like you said, I like how they portrayed the support that she received, because one of the things that I think her friends did great was just pointing out the behavior that they were seeing, they didn't necessarily one thing that I did think that Beau could not Oh, sorry, Jackson could have done a little bit better is he had said, like, oh, Beau is so weird. But I think that's fair, just like pointing out what he sees. And you can see her get defensive and feel like she has to defend him and makes excuses for him. I think that's one of the other things that you often see in these situations, is that they feel like everyone's ganging up on this person. And they feel like no, well, you don't understand them like I do. You haven't seen their like great qualities. And so oftentimes, if you attack their perpetrator, and you say negative things about them, that can also often cause the victim or survivor to turn away from you. Because you feel like because they they may feel like you don't understand, or they may feel like you're attacking them in their relationship. And so yeah, like her friend said, oftentimes, it can just be like, Hey, I care about you, I worry about you. This is the different things that I'm seeing, like, are you okay, can you explain this to me? 

Caitlin Cornell  32:12

Yeah, absolutely. I do think that it's really important to mention that, like, when you look at literature about like relationship violence, a lot of times people also call it domestic violence. So you know, those terms, like relationship violence is what we use, but a lot of people don't do still, you know, use DV, so, depends whatever floats your boat. But something that we do see in the literature surrounding that topic is that a lot of these relationship patterns start when people are this age when they're young. And I think it's really important to note that because that's when we form our schemas for like, what's normal in relationships, that's when we learn how to be in a relationship, like what that should look like, what love is, right? And so just knowing that, like, you know, these initial, like, teenage relationships are gonna be the foundation for a lot of that and often do predict, you know, like, what people continue to be in those kind of relationships as they get older. I think it is really important to note that like, we do you see that unfortunately, like, this is unfortunately realistic, right? Like one in five college students does experience relationship violence, right, like, this is not an outlier. This is not like a, Oh, we did this for inclusion sake, this is a really very realistic portrayal, of you know, different relationships, you know, that we see, like, as young adults. So just knowing that like, sometimes that cycle can be disruptive in more ways than one. And that also having people who can interrupt that is super important. 

Carolyne Lanyero  33:23

And I love how you brought up that the relationships that we have when we're younger, and the experiences we have can impact like our long lasting effects and our future lives. And I think you can see that, especially with Joanna and just shifting a little bit to Joanna's character, and you see that she's a survivor of childhood abuse. And you can see how that impacts her and through her journey of coming to terms with that. 

Caitlin Cornell  33:47

Yeah, and I think that, you know, she's presented like as like this very kooky kind of off kilter character, right, like an exact opposite of Dr. Milburn, which I think is really interesting, because I know we're all very attached to Jean, she's amazing, right? Yes, like, love her lots. But I do also think that, you know, seeing like them as foils is a really interesting way to introduce her as a character because she just seems kind of like a mess, right?  And as we learn more about her, right, we kind of realize that she's living her life in a very kind of, almost, like defensive way, you know, it was like she was afraid to get attached to things she, you know, feels like she can't follow through. And we see a lot of how much the denial of the childhood sexual abuse that occurred when she's younger does affect her current life but also how like how deep set that denial goes right about how you know, even which, you know, her sister's, like begging her to address this, you know, she says like, No, I can't I can't do it. And we see you know, the how that affects family ndynamics as well because I do feel like Jean was like totally parentified like absolutely parentified

Carolyne Lanyero  34:10

Yeah.   definitely. 

Caitlin Cornell  34:47

And I think we see that like, that's maybe why she struggles as a parent, because she's been doing that shit for a long time. And then she's, you know, starting from zero all over again. And you know, for the first time it doesn't feel normal to her right because she's experiencing postpartum which you know, we'll get into 

Carolyne Lanyero  35:01

Yes, yes, yes. But yeah, definitely just join us experience and I love how they stated it when she was calling into the show into the radio show and talking to her sister. Just the idea like you said, the wanting to continuously be moving not wanting to get attached to anything so she can essentially outrun what's happened to her kind of, and you see that that hasn't been working for her so far. And shifting her tactics and trying something new and just being brave. It's brave to address that because these things are difficult and also just like we mentioned earlier, we love that Amy's plotline and her healing story was prolonged throughout the show because healing from trauma is not linear and it takes time it's not an it's not a one problem fits all solution. And I know that Jean was pushing Joanna to do like therapy and talk to someone therapy may not be accessible for everyone. It's definitely a great resource and I recommend that anyone who can at least tries it. But also I like how they explore in the show that like Jean being a therapist herself also needing help and support and also taking medication. I know she was really opposed to it at first but she found that it can be like a really great resource for her so there's a lot of different things that work for different people and not one shoe fits all. 

Caitlin Cornell  36:22

Yeah, absolutely. I really love that depiction of like therapist says not God right or not like perfect. We see this a lot with our teenage sex therapists because like Otis and O are kind of each wildinf out in their own individual way. Right like popping off as individual girl bosses.But you know, I think we do kind of expect Jean to just be put together even though we see like a little bit of her maybe like actual humaneness come out right with like the Jakob situation in season three.  And like, how she makes mistakes too  yes. But we see that on a much larger scale on season four, where we see you know that she does have internal biases, even as a therapist, right, like, she still is opposed to medication, she doesn't want to be a person on medication. And we see how pervasive that is as the season goes on. I think that's true for a lot of people, you know, I as somebody on medication, like I know how difficult it is to kind of be personally okay with it, and then also make everyone else in your life okay with it, too. 

Carolyne Lanyero  37:14

Yes, definitely. 

Caitlin Cornell  37:16

Yeah. because you see that narrative pushed that like, Oh, that means you're crazy. Like no, it just means that like, there are different ways to healthy and this is one of them. But I do think, you know, we did talk about before about how we've seen another theme this season of like, you know, caretaking for caretakers, right, like, how do we support the people in our lives who are doing that work? And I think we see that with Ruby, we see that with Jean, you know, we see that with even Otis to an extent he becomes a caretaker for the baby. And he's kind of losing it. Just you know, seeing how much we need to do to continue to support people who we can kind of take for granted as solid or as people who are always going to know what to do.

Carolyne Lanyero  37:48

 Yeah. And I know, looking at like the caretaking for caretakers, especially, I'm in a families and society class. And so this past semester, we've been talking a lot about family and family dynamics. And we also talked about about the institutional like resources and support that set up for family and how it's lacking severely. And so you kind of just see that like the idea of the lack of support that's available for parents, despite this being a really difficult journey, and parents needing community and needing help and assistance. And especially with Jean going through postpartum. I'm glad that they brought that up. And they depicted that, because it's something that's actually really common. I don't know exactly the specific statistics, but it's still not very talked about very much. And I think a lot of people who give birth are really looked down upon because they think, Oh, well, this is your baby, you should instantly fall in love, you should feel great. This should be the happiest moment of your life. But it's like no, you went through this pretty traumatic birthing experience, it's put a lot on your body after going through months and months of labor, it's done a lot to your body. And then now you're not getting any sleep, we have to take care of this person, this new human and provide needs like physically, mentally, emotionally. And so it can be a lot and then parents are expected to juggle it. And then you also see the narrative with women just being expected to do it all like Jean, wanting to raise her child, but then also wanting to have her career and having to put take some sacrifices sometimes. 

Caitlin Cornell  39:17

And I think also just how terrified she is losing, you know, kind of the prestige she has, or you know that she's been told that once you have a minimum, you can't give that up, especially as a woman in the workplace. And we see that we see how much that affects her right? Because she she's a mess coming into work. And she's still trying to make this thing work, even though she's uncomfortable. And as a therapist, she knows better than anybody else that she is not healthy. Right? I do also like that you bring up you know, her traumatic birthing experience about how isolating that was because that's something I totally forgot about, but we see it you know, repeatedly, you know, she tries to connect with either these other moms, these other parents, who, you know, had these, you know, really happy birth stories or had a great time. And I think that we just take for granted that like, oh, yeah, everyone's gonna be okay when they give birth. And but she almost died, right? The baby almost died. It was terrible and awful. And like any kind of near death experience, I feel like any other kind of near death experience is legitimized. But you know, with birth kind of like, oh, well, yeah, sometimes it happens.

Carolyne Lanyero  40:13

 It's like, oh, it happens all the time. Like, yeah, that's to be expected. People like, oh, people used to die commonly from birth. Like, you're so lucky. Like, you're here. You're fine. Yeah.

Caitlin Cornell  40:22

 Well, we see how hard that is. So she's tries to reconcile that with herself and kind of acknowledge that trauma and voice it in a way that she feels heard. But also, like how isolating it is socially, when she was like, Yeah, I am struggling. I'm struggling really hard. This is not easy for me. I don't know what to do. And everyone was like, Oh, well, anyway, my baby and I are best friends.I thought that that was like, that's one of the things I love is that awkwardness, but also, you know, just I think it's one of them. Those subtle are representations of how hard it can be when you know, you're trying to speak about your experiences, you're looking for community and you don't find it or you don't you know, you're not heard with those kinds of things. Exactly.

Carolyne Lanyero  41:01

 Yeah, I hope the US society, especially compared compared to a lot of OEM countries. We are lacking we are lacking behind please, at least paternity leave. Let's get some paid material though.

Caitlin Cornell  41:17

Yeah, I forgot. I almost I can't believe talking speaking of like grief and trauma, we should talk about Maeve and reactions to grief. Because we see, you know that she just doesn't want it like she she's not feeling the feelings people want her to feel. And it's really weird for everybody, you know, yes. And a lot of people like I actually have my sister loves Grey's Anatomy. And they actually portray grief the same way it's really interesting is one of the characters. George's dad dies. And he's like, cool, I'm just gonna have sex forever, not ever have to think about it. You see the same thing with Maeve Because as a teenager, she's like, Oh, well, like, I'm gonna find other intimacy so I can be distracted. And you see, you know, characters being confused by that, but also the therapist instantly being like, Oh, yes, like, this is very normal. And I think the fact that grief is complicated by the fact that her mom's an addict, right? Yeah. And that, you know, even she knew that, you know, it wasn't all the way her fault, right, that addiction is a disease, you saw how hard she tried to fight to keep away from that. But also, you know, reconciling that like, Yeah, like that was traumatic for her. And that was difficult. And that, you know, she didn't always do what she was supposed to as a caretaker, but that she did still love her the best way she could. So just kind of having that nuanced depiction of, you know, like, addicts also as people who can be human, and still can do good things and still can love their children, but who nevertheless, like still do kind of have these larger failings sometimes

Carolyne Lanyero  42:36

yeah, definitely, that people are gray areas. We want them to be black and white. But unfortunately, that's not going to occur. And I love how you brought that the different ways to grieve because you see, especially like maeve's version of grief and how she grieves versus her brother, and especially with such a complicated experience with their mother. And I think I love how the show depicted both of those. And I think also, the way her brother grieved wasn't necessarily, there's no really wrong way to grieve, especially when you go through a traumatic experience like that. We like to say that, yeah, there's because traumatic experiences are not normal, there's no normal really way to address it. Because we the body has, like, physiologically speaking, and psychologically speaking, the body has certain, like thoughts and patterns for when a specific event occurs. And then the body says, oh, okay, like, I've seen this before, I kind of know what to do. Like, if you touch a hot stove. The next time your body's like, Oh, don't touch the hot stove. Or if you do, you're like, Oh, your body goes through a certain pathway, and you have a certain reaction. But with trauma, like that's not normal people aren't meant to experience trauma or don't typically experience trauma. And so when something like that happens, your body doesn't have a automatic like pathway or mechanism to deal with that. And so it just chooses one that may already exist. And so yeah, I just love how you kind of get to see that. And like you said, you said it so well, but yeah, grief and like, what does that mean? And grief is not linear as well as healing is not linear. 

Caitlin Cornell  44:07

Yeah, yeah. And I think also, you know, seeing the abandonment response, I think the knee jerk is like, Oh, that's terrible. But then also realizing that, like, there's a lot of anger wrapped up in there, and that that definitely goes on back. Yeah. Because we also we also see maeve exhibit a lot of that behavior because that's what they've grown up with the model for parenting as right or as like being in a family. Like, oh, like, shit gets hard and you go, you find something else. 

Carolyne Lanyero  44:29

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Caitlin Cornell  44:30

So I really love though, that, you know, as much as we do see a lot of this grief, you know, being unresolved, which I think is important. We also see her kind of choose to go somewhere not running away for the first time, but she's choosing to, you know, give herself that agency and to run towards something and to actually like unapologetically invest in it because I think she avoids attachment a lot and she avoids kind of putting too much hope or too much feeling into anything, or being too vulnerable or like wanting anything too bad. Yeah, I think we see her finally just really open up and say, You know what, fuck it. Like, even if this is tough, I'm going to pursue it. 

Carolyne Lanyero  45:03

Yeah, like I'm deserving. 

Caitlin Cornell  45:04

Yes. Yeah. And to just, you know, do that in a way that's not only dealing with my mom or like, stuff's hard back home. It's no, it's like, I want this, I'm going to try and get it. And so I thought that that was not that it was a resolution, like, it's not panned out doesn't cancel out. I agree with you. I feel like that people like, whenever people achieve something after something hard they're like, Oh, so you're fine. And it's like, no, no, it just means that like, I am a person who has more than one feeling right. So I think that that not that that like, you know, denotes the grief in any way, but I think it does, It does kind of provide her pathway for healing.  In that like, she is breaking the cycles of behavior, right? Even if it is hard, even if it is lonely, and even if you know, like, she's still not 100% sure what to do. Like she knows that she doesn't want to continue to, you know, leave or continue to run away. And she wants to kind of feel her feelings, even if that's going to be the tough part.

Carolyne Lanyero  45:57

Yes, yeah. And I think also, just like one final thing for me about maeve's story, I do love how the conversation that she had with her teacher. And I think it also just goes to effect just goes to show how Yeah, our childhood experiences really affect our behaviors and how we feel in our responses and other aspects as well, not just in our relationships, but you can also see like in the classroom and in school and education, like things like that can be difficult. And like her feeling throughout this time like she's not deserving of something and wanting to give up because of some negative feedback. And I love how the feedback and suggestions that she gives to him saying, you'll meet other people like me, like, maybe try being supportive. I always think it's I've never understood personally like someone who likes support and like encouragement more than like criticism a lot of the time or at least, like harsh criticism or just insults. Why we always feel the need of kind of Yeah, in order to push someone like we have to be really hard on them. Like, why can't we also, like support them as well and whatnot. But I liked that conversation that she had.  for

Caitlin Cornell  47:05

For sure. And I think that takes we've seen we see this over and over again. Right, like characters choosing to be brave. Right. I think that takes a lot of bravery, especially as you know, she's speaking to an authority figure, not only an authority figure, but like somebody who is a giant in their field. Right. And, you know, she does it unapologetically which I think is fantastic. Yeah, I did really like the season and I know there were mixed opinions. But I did, I thought a lot of the conclusions did kind of line up with character arcs, what we've seen, and I think that, you know, kind of did straight to the app. And I think that it did stay true to what the show is, is that, you know, we see, you know, continue to focus on vulnerability on like, having tough conversations on people like messing up all the time, but you know, choosing to learn from their mistakes instead of just kind of wallowing in them. And you know, just how important growth is, especially as young people. So I really love that. And obviously, we we have lots of sex because its sex education.So we're not going to have a season of sex education without lots of sex problems. But I do think, too, that you know, like acknowledging that as the thing that we should be talking about more, like socially and institutionally right that, like, we shouldn't just expect abstinence, or we shouldn't just expect that, like, this isn't something influencing people's lives. Super important.

Carolyne Lanyero  48:17

 So yes, and we also I love that we see the harm of what can happen if we don't have these discussions in our lives. 

Caitlin Cornell  48:23

Yeah. So, you know, if you haven't watched sex education, apologies, because we did spoil like everything 

Carolyne Lanyero  48:29

Yeah, still go watch it. There's a lot more that we weren't able to cover because there's just a lot of information in there. But yes, we hope you enjoyed this episode. And We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we had a really great time just discussing, and Caitlin always has great ideas. So it's always great to be on the podcast with you. Oh, would you like to say anything any final words as a wrap up?

Caitlin Cornell  48:59

You know, just that you know, love this kind of media stoked that it's out there. And, you know, if you or someone in  your life, you know, hear stuff like this and wants to continue having those conversations. We not only have like counseling resources on campus, but like come on in and say hello, it's what we're here for. So you know, please feel free to stop by um, yeah, yeah, 

Carolyne Lanyero  49:19

and thank you all so much for listening. Once again, feel free to follow us on Instagram. And also keep up to date with some of the different things that we have going on. And to also if you ever have any requests or anything that you may have, you may like to see us discussing on the podcast if you have any ideas, we do look for guests, so please feel free to reach out to us. But other than that, we hope you all have a fantastic day and have enjoyed listening. Thank you so much.  If you or anyone you know needs help or support for experiences of interpersonal violence, which can include sexual Violence, relationship violence and stalking. Please feel free to stop by the Phoenix center and make an appointment or gather more information. Or you can also call us on our 24/7 free and confidential Helpline at 303556 Call or two two five, five. So that is 303556 Call or two two five five. Thank you